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Post by Lord Draconiroth on May 6, 2014 8:16:02 GMT
This is just to piss off the tournament scene right? Their declaration to the world that the game is in now way balance for any type of competitive play!
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Post by Geifer on May 6, 2014 8:52:35 GMT
All very interesting on the web today then since the WD leak info. Inter webs swamped with rage quit, cost issues, balance questions etc etc. So the internet hated 6th and allies as it broke the game. GW launch new version and the internet hates it already. Lose lose situation. Yeah, good times. If I didn't spend my time doing something productive like painting, I'd sait back and have a good laugh at the panic breaking out. I wonder how unbound Death Stars of riptides or whatever will,cope with the new objective thingies? Lots of questions and no answers yet. Presumably, in order to ensure that an unbound army isn't totally hampered, scoring Troops as we know them should be a thing of the past. You are correct, there are no answers yet, but scoring has to enter the equation somehow. Sure will be interesting to see how this pans out. This is just to piss off the tournament scene right? Their declaration to the world that the game is in now way balance for any type of competitive play! You mean anymore than they already did? Not that I mind, but at this point you would think that from the whining tournament play is dead and buried anyway. Of course it isn't, and people will still try it, but at the very least presenting several ways of composing an army should benefit tournaments with not detrimental effect on the game and casual games. Officially it's anything goes, but a tournament organizer can easily say, in the interest of balance, our tournament is played using this army composition ruleset for any armies. Hard to say without knowing all the facts, but that strikes me as going a step their way without actually moving away from casual play.
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The Irontooth
Bloodclaw
Tale of Gamers: 3 units, 4 pieces of terrain
Posts: 387
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Post by The Irontooth on May 6, 2014 16:08:32 GMT
I play 40k since end 3thE. I have organised four 40k campaigns. I have (helped) organanising four 40k tournaments (of which two as Head TO). I have organised some other small 40k events.
Or in short, I love the 40K game/setting a lot and have invested a lot of time in creating events where other people could enjoy the game as much as I did.
I even considered buying an Imperial Guard army last month (actually even untill last week).
But now ...
Reading these two pages, I don't know. I have always looked at 40k as a positive hobby worth putting my money in, and maybe because of that these two pages hit me so hard. The hobby was already at a point that the inbalance was never worse (since I play it) and now they are going to announce the structure armies had to build by and that at least assured us some minimum balance are going to be thrown completely over board and next to this they are going to add the most inbalanced phase of WHF (the magic phase) to the game as well?
I'm possibly going to face an entire army of maulerfiends or Riptides?
I have truelly never felt worse because of something to do with the hobby. From wanting to buy an Imperial Guard army last week, I'm now at the point I just want to sell all my 40k and actually preventive would want to stop with anything that has something to do with GW all together.
The last decade I have defended GW and its decisions a lot. Or at least tried to look at it in a more objective way than most. But I now realise that I have come to a point with GW where I don't want to be. Sad, because backgroundwise and model qualitywise there is no substitute for GW games. But right now I'm just done with 40k (for now maybe).
Really dissapointed fanboy
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Post by paladin7221 on May 6, 2014 16:33:54 GMT
If Forgeworld wasn't so blasted expensive and ruinous to my credit card, then it'd be Horus Heresy 30k all the way for me.
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eiglepulper
Aspirant
How to photobomb your cat
Posts: 96
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Post by eiglepulper on May 7, 2014 0:11:40 GMT
I will not be dropping X pounds on a new rulebook until I can see how complicated it has been made and whether or not my local opportunities to play warrants me buying the thing.
I've never really been able to learn/remember all the fiddly little rules which were introduced in 6th - admittedly that is down to various personal difficulties which I won't go into - but I just found a lot of them totally bloody pointless and/or unnecessary anyway. I am also one of the "Allies? Why do you need them? Can't you win with the primary army you've got? Are you not good enough?" brigade so I seriously hope that Allies has either been curtailed considerably or else removed, but I doubt the latter has any chance of happening (too many sales lost).
My only real problem is that I have a shedload of models here - 8 or 9 armies' worth iirc - so if I don't move on to the new pasture that is "Not 7th Edition" then the models will be made redundant due to my not playing 7th and that leaves me in the valley of "Sell Them", which I'm not sure I have the cojones to do to the entire stock although there have been quite a few bits sales of late, including 2500pts of my Tau.
Sorry to bore you all with this post.
R.
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Post by Lord Draconiroth on May 7, 2014 7:46:20 GMT
I'll get it eventually, just not on release day... Maybe not even this year...
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Post by Geifer on May 7, 2014 8:50:18 GMT
The hobby was already at a point that the inbalance was never worse (since I play it) and now they are going to announce the structure armies had to build by and that at least assured us some minimum balance are going to be thrown completely over board and next to this they are going to add the most inbalanced phase of WHF (the magic phase) to the game as well? I don't think it's fair to blame the phase for what's going on in it. We know from the article that it is handled differently to current Fantasy Magic, which is pretty much entirely random. The psychic phase will have a random element but also a static element you can plan around. That goes for both players, apparently. I think it's a bit early to consider it a factor of imbalance when before you had the same thing that made 7th ed Fantasy magic way worse than 8th ed Fantasy magic, that a player could just load up on casters and overpower whatever the opponent had in the way of defense through sheer numbers. That's 5th ed psychics right there. Unless you have a Rune Priest, which 95% of all armies don't have, you can't stop blessings and maledictions, and unless you have psykers or happen to play Sisters or Templars, you get to negate powers affecting you on 6+. In contrast the new system appears to bring in dispell elements which allow you, the defender, to stop the psychics that you really don't want to suffer, allowing you to build up directed psychic defense, and allowing you to prevent multi-buffing one super unit so it's basically unstoppable. As for the removal of the FOC, that's optional apparently, and adhering to the FOC gives bonuses. Until we have the full picture, it's a bit early to feel down about it. I do not subscribe to the idea that abandoning the FOC is going to lead to bigger balance issues than we have now, for two reasons. First: I'm possibly going to face an entire army of maulerfiends or Riptides? Yeah, unlike now where you face a massive 100pts sunk into minimum Cultists or Firewarriors before you get that entire army of Maulerfields or Riptides. Yep, big difference right there. If you want an extreme army, an extreme army you can built right now. Token Troops and a cheap HW do not stop you. Forget allies and formations, one codex and the normal FOC are very open already. In addition to that, people are making this melodramatic all Riptide statement like it actually means anything. Eight Riptides and nothing else are going to achieve exactly nothing if you put them on the table. Four Knights? Sure, they ignore S5 and below fire, which at least renders lots of units useless. That's possible to field right now, by the way. But Riptides? Can be harmed by Guardsmen and Grots, can be engaged in close combat with little chance of doing anything from that point on, and don't have the volume of fire to take on an entire army. The thing that makes Riptides work is the support of a Tau army that provides markerlights for better BS and ignore cover, as well as screening troops that can stop remnants of enemy squads and fusion blasters or railguns to take on heavy armor. Riptides without infantry support are about as useless as Armored Companies without infantry support. Second, there's a critical mass for many units. Once you have three Riptides or Heldrakes, you simply don't need any more and are better off spending your points on other units. And it's not like playing armies like that is any fun. Taking more isn't going to make things worse. If you are the kind of player who maximizes these things outside the FOC, you're going to be the kind of player who maximizes them within the FOC as well. The problem to me, as you may have guessed, isn't the rules. Army list abuse is a problem with the player, not the army list. Unless both players are willing to consider their counterpart's fun in the game, no army creation system that even in the least bit open will prevent abuse. I have truelly never felt worse because of something to do with the hobby. From wanting to buy an Imperial Guard army last week, I'm now at the point I just want to sell all my 40k and actually preventive would want to stop with anything that has something to do with GW all together. The last decade I have defended GW and its decisions a lot. Or at least tried to look at it in a more objective way than most. But I now realise that I have come to a point with GW where I don't want to be. Sad, because backgroundwise and model qualitywise there is no substitute for GW games. But right now I'm just done with 40k (for now maybe). Well, that's a shame. A bit premature in my opinion, as I said above, and I'd advise against rushing anything, but GW isn't making this easy on anyone. It's not surprising, really. If Forgeworld wasn't so blasted expensive and ruinous to my credit card, then it'd be Horus Heresy 30k all the way for me. As someone who hasn't even looked at a Horus Heresy book, nevermind inside one, is it just 40k rules with different army lists in its own FOC? Are there rules modifications? ... so I seriously hope that Allies has either been curtailed considerably or else removed, but I doubt the latter has any chance of happening (too many sales lost). Allies remain. The article mentions a revised ally matrix, so allies are definitely in 7th ed, albeit altered to some (as of yet unknown) degree. I'll get it eventually, just not on release day... Maybe not even this year... Careful. If you wait until next year, you may have to buy 8th ed instead.
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Post by Stretch on May 7, 2014 8:50:29 GMT
The meet is distinctly 6th edition
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Post by Lord Draconiroth on May 7, 2014 10:18:30 GMT
It might actually come down to the bonus for the "battle forged" armies. Because if that is just a bonus on stealing initiative, for example, no one will bother. But if it's something like the whole army gets a 3+ invulnerable save (obviously won't happen but I'm making extremes here) then they won't use the unbound version.
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Post by paladin7221 on May 7, 2014 10:27:03 GMT
The meet is distinctly 6th edition Thank goodness for that. Geifer: 30k is essentially the 40k rules set with subtle differences, yes indeed. It's actually pretty well balanced even against current 40k armies like Nids and Eldar, though if anything it's skewed slightly in favour of the latter. 30 man Tactical squads may sound fantastic and in many cases they are but don't have the flexibility of a 10 man squad. Just bolter boys and the sergeant, no heavies or specials in the actual squad itself. You have to buy support squads for that. And Primarchs, of course. You can take Primarchs. Horus is a badass.
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Post by Geifer on May 7, 2014 11:28:10 GMT
Thanks for the info, Paladin. It might actually come down to the bonus for the "battle forged" armies. Because if that is just a bonus on stealing initiative, for example, no one will bother. But if it's something like the whole army gets a 3+ invulnerable save (obviously won't happen but I'm making extremes here) then they won't use the unbound version. Yes, it'll be in the bonuses battle forged armies get. Imagine if it was along the lines of extermination as a victory condition no longer exists, and battle forged lists get kill points in addition to all mission objectives. Your super awesome unbound army could lose because there's no way to catch up on victory points and even destroying the enemy army can't win you the game. The win at all cost types would whine about the stupidity of that all day after they went to the trouble of making the game as unfun for their opponent as possible and still lost. I like to imagine it'll be something like that, at least until the facts come out and my dreams are shattered.
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The Irontooth
Bloodclaw
Tale of Gamers: 3 units, 4 pieces of terrain
Posts: 387
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Post by The Irontooth on May 7, 2014 17:28:50 GMT
I don't agree with you. First of all in the current WHF edition magic is more powerful than in 7th. There is too much irresistable force in this edition and the top spells are game winning instead of something that can help you winning a game (black sun can easily destroy half your army when the mage is positioned right). What 40k concerns, in 4th, 5th and even 6th psychic powers are/were at least not game winning. They are or at least can be very helpful, but not more than other things can be in the game (shooting, etc.). We also don't have anything to stop shooting or close combat attacks by the way, so why would we need something to stop psychic powers? What would stop a psychic power attack like a mental lighting bolt? A natural army aura resistance versus psychic lightning bolts?? What would help a Guardsman from getting hit by it? Suddenly some magical defence aura protects him (= the army's dispel attempt). It is just stupid. The reason why you need a dispel chance in Fantasy is because magic is too powerful and so it has to be made unreliable by having to bypass a minimum casting value, a dispell attempt by your opponent, and risks of miscasting. You only 'really' need something (a dispel attempt) to stop it when it is too good for the points you pay for it. This already implies that psychic powers will be a lot more powerful in 7th than they were in 6th. And so that an other phase can be spammed and so unbalance the game. An allround army that previously only needed to deal with nfantry and vehicles, already suddenly had to be able to deal with flyers as well, and now will have to handle a psychic phase too. And will psychic powers be too powerful? Well just take a look at the following page: Librarians can sacrifice themself to become a Bloodthirster? I agree they really needed that as no one was taking any psykers untill now, and it will definitely not unbalance the game at all. www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8727&d=1399467257I actually know some players that stopped playing WHF because they didn't like the magic phase and so started 40k. No escape now. Why was is so horrible that 40k had it's own system of psychic effects that meant each psyker had 1 psychic power that almost always got cast, that couldn't be dispelled by your opponent and didn't need to as it they were all quite balanced. Why do WHF and WH40k have to become more and more copycats of each other? Maybe it will be okay, but more chance to it that it will further unbalance the game. It will definitely not make it more balanced. And if one reason 40K could have needed a new edition it would be to add more balance and structure to the game. I love (or loved) GW games because, though they weren't 100% balanced, they were balanced enough to play a tactical interesting game with two armies that even when minmax still backgroundwise still more or less made sense. And if your opponent played a powerlist and you a good list you still could win if you were the better player. The current edition allies and add-ons have already lead to powergamers to field the most unfluffy lists ever, and that have never been harder to beat with a 'normal' list. The gap between casual gamers with a good list and powergamers have already never been bigger. And more options to take whatever you want and a new phase that definitely will not add balance to the game will only mean armylists will never have looked more incoherent and as casual gamer with your fun, but nice list will already know that either you'll have to bend and start making cheesy lists yourself or know starting the game is pointless unless you like to put away your models. ... On a side note, I like to follow some youtube dudes and this guy, who is an active US tournament player, has the following opinion on the matter.
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Post by Farseer Kyladras on May 8, 2014 6:49:03 GMT
If one of the main reasons for this new edition is to bring all the rules and supplemental rules into one place then I for one look forward to it and shall buy it on release. As it stands now I don't have time to keep up with which books I need to play a 'normal' game of 40k. I need the rulebook and my codex of course but after that? Do I need escalation? Cityfight? Stronghold assault? Apocalypse? Now the last one is Ok, apoc was always an optional extra but lately I have no idea what normal 40k is! So yeah, bring on 7th and let's have all the rules we need in one place... My personal wish list for 7th? Tighten up the allies rules, yes guard and marines would fight together, yes chaos marines and daemons would fight together but Eldar and dark Eldar? Suddenly they are best buddies now?? And any number of ridiculous allied lists that are currently possible, please GW make 40k a bit more pure again FK
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Post by Lord Draconiroth on May 8, 2014 7:45:39 GMT
I think the whole point with this is that they don't want any difference. "Normal" 40k is going to be everything!
I just listened to that vid that Irontooth posted and that guy says things I was thinking and already mentioned. It's going to be the case of the tournament community are the ones that'll suffer with all this, however that doesn't bother me as the tournament scene just sounds like a bunch of power gamers that I wouldn't want to play anyway.
It will just be a case even more that home rules will just play even more of a part. I already have an adjusted FOC for different points costs with limits on HQ etc, unlocking the full standard one when the army gets to 2000 points. This time will be same case.
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Post by haywiregrenade on May 8, 2014 8:46:38 GMT
All this is all based on 3 pages of chat from the WD. Nothing beyond Dark Angel SM uber psykers summoning Blood Thirsters to beat Tyranids and a new battle forged and unbound and psychic phase is discussed.
Nothing more that a discussion.
There are no rules
There are no details
The amount of "How has 7th Ed ruined your hobby", "I quit GW for sure now!", or what "Riptide Spam will you be fielding next week then" links I see on Facebook to so called articles on BoLS or Dakka etc is crazy! At least it has replaced the countless "How has 6th ed allies ruined your hobby" articles though, so thats all ok then!
NO ONE KNOWS. Its 100% conjecture. And I bet GW love it. The only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about.
For me the edition changes nothing in the way I play, the gamers I play against or the attitude I bring to the table top. So to be honest, the only thing that changes is the random pick up games or events. But TBH, that was the same under 6th, so realistically, nothing changes for me.
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